Podcast: Play in new window
Content marketing is my favorite kind of marketing — the marketing that doesn’t feel like marketing! Let’s talk with Margaret McGriff about how to use this in our branding. (If you haven’t seen my episodes on branding and marketing without selling, you might want to get those, too!)
Find Margaret at mmcgriff.com.
Vote for Crown & Creed at https://www.realmmakers.com/vote-for-readers-choice/.
Video (from Twitch and YouTube):
<p>Writing is only part of a writing career -- no one warned us that we would need business acumen and entrepreneurship to be an author. Whether you're traditionally published or an independent self-publisher, it's good to have a leg up on accounting, marketing, time management, and other key skills.</p><br><p>These recordings of live discussion on craft and development, on business best practices, on explorations of fascinating and inspiring real life cool stuff, and more will help you along your writing journey and career development. Join Laura VanArendonk Baugh as she shares what she's learned and what she's learning. (Or join the weekly live discussion with your own questions!)</p><br /><hr><p style='color:grey; font-size:0.75em;'> See <a style='color:grey;' target='_blank' rel='noopener noreferrer' href='https://acast.com/privacy'>acast.com/privacy</a> for privacy and opt-out information.</p>
Transcript:
Laura
All right. Hello, everybody. It is Tuesday night, at least in the land of Laura. This is To Write And Have Written. I’m Laura VanArendonk Baugh. If it’s not Tuesday night where you are happy, time zone to wherever you are. And I am really excited about tonight. This is going to be good.
So. First thing, just a reminder, it’s the beginning of the month. Have you done your author snapshots? So we work we did a walk through of those, so if you if you missed that, feel free to go back, catch that show up. We just walked through this, just tracking your data and your numbers. And remember, the data does not judge you. OK, they’re just numbers so that we can see things. That’s it.
And brief braggy moment: Crown & Creed is in the semifinals for Readers Choice Realm Awards. So I will be totally nagging people about that at some point in the month. So just there’s you know.
And that’s enough news because we’re done with that. Because I want to get right into everything else that’s going on tonight. Let me let me hop over to my magic button. Oh, there we go. Look. So tonight, I am absolutely thrilled to have Margaret McGriff to talk about content marketing and Star Wars and anything else that comes up. So true story.
Hi, Bridger, ShyRedFox, and PhiPhiWorldsmaker here in the chat. Awesome. Thanks.
So true story. When I first started putting together notes last summer, about what if I did a streaming show to talk about the business of creativity and all of that, and I was writing down names of people that I wanted, and this was one of the first names that I wrote down. Oh, not even lying. And and so I wanted her last year but that didn’t work out, but I snagged her for tonight. So the next hour she’s ours. So please bring all the questions. So and I couldn’t say this until I had Margaret on the screen, but happy Star Wars day, everybody, May the Fourth be with you.
Margaret
Happy Star Wars Day! And Baby Yoda #1.
Laura
Oh, my gosh. He greens out in your background.
Margaret
Yeah, here you go. I got to keep him in the camera. Yeah. Yeah, that’s the baby baby one.
Laura
And I’ve got my Mara Jade shirt on for today. There we go. Yeah.
Margaret
Oh, sweet.
Laura
So we’re all we’re all representing. Here we go. OK, so. So, yeah. So let’s jump into content marketing and. Hi, Grace. Welcome. Sorry Margaret. I didn’t warn you. I’m a little like, I have Laura persona and then I have chat to the chat and
Margaret
I love it. I love it.
Laura
But I’ll feed you questions as they come in. I’m sure they’ll come up. So just this week I found this quote. It was actually in a Findaway Voices article about marketing and I loved it. It said, “If you’re an author that doesn’t know the difference between CPMs and CTAs, the world of content marketing will be a natural fit and pairs nicely with your email marketing.” That is perfect. This is why I like content marketing. Yeah, you don’t have to — we can set aside that spreadsheet that we talked about just a moment ago.
Margaret
Yes, it does play a part, but not in the beginning. I think when you’re new, it’s all about having fun and playing around and kind of see what you’re doing. And then when you get a little bit more established, we have to do that little adulting, a.k.a. the spreadsheets, just to make sure we know what’s working, so we’re not, you know, spinning our wheels and doing things that are not working.
Laura
Remember, you are bigger than the spreadsheet. You’re stronger than the spreadsheet. You do not let the spreadsheet bully you.
Margaret
Yeah, OK. Yeah. All right.
Laura
So I have been saying content marketing a lot, but we haven’t actually talked about what content marketing is. In the social media leading up to the show I said it was my favorite, but that’s all the explanation. So would you like to do the the professional nugget of, OK, what is content marketing?
Margaret
OK, so you can think of content marketing is pretty much the art of selling something without outwardly selling something. And that’s probably why it’s your favorite, because it takes all of that slimy salesy “buy my stuff buy my stuff!” things that we like don’t want to do. And it’s great because a lot of companies are embracing that. So something as simple as a commercial that we see all the time is like the perfect piece of content marketing. A lot of times you’re so caught up in the story that you don’t even realize what the product is and and then they’ll have that little little thing at the end that says Google or Facebook or Apple, you know.
So that’s one of the wonderful things about content marketing, is you don’t you yourself don’t even realize you’re selling something. But and that’s the whole point. So if you don’t feel like you’re selling something, then you’re doing it right. So that’s kind of it in a nutshell.
Laura
And that is definitely why it’s my favorite. I would be like, so let me talk about the things that interest me and by the way, you now know that I have a book, as opposed to, “Would you like to buy my novel? I swear my mom likes it.”
Margaret
Exactly.
Laura
So I’m going to pause real quick because we’ve got a couple of things in the chat that I want to pull in that are still on the Star Wars day and everything. We have made the La Forge be with you. Going to let that one go, and then PJZooFit who, for those of you don’t know, has a fitness program combined with animal welfare and conservation and such, and she she mentioned that she was forgot about May the Fourth because she was wrapped up in tomorrow being Cinco de Rhino.
So. All right. And hi Bridger, welcome. You’re not late. We’re just getting excited about Star Wars and stuff, so.
So we are talking about, well, let’s just talk with first of all, how can I get started with content marketing? Because it’s it’s one of those phrases that sounds large and daunting, like content marketing. So so what’s my first step? Where’s my beginner, or how can I how can I start baby steps of content marketing?
Margaret
Honestly, it’s kind of like before we even get to the baby steps. Because I like that you brought the fact that content marketing sounds like overwhelming. So think of it as outlining your story. Because it’s exactly what you’re doing in your content marketing, you are telling a story. And every story starts with the character. It starts with the hero of your story. So when you’re doing writing a novel, it’s your main character, your heroine, your elf, your dwarf, your warrior, whatever that is.
With content marketing it’s your reader. Your reader is the hero of your story, you are — pretend that your reader is, and even I know Star Wars Day, but I love the Lord of the Rings, too. So we’re just going to throw this in here real quick. So imagine you’re Gandalf.
Laura
Never a bad day for the Lord of the Rings.
Margaret
Never a bad day for the Lord of the Rings, right. So imagine you’re Gandalf and you show up in the Shire and say, come on an adventure with me. Right. Like, that’s basically your role in the story of your reader. So when you are starting content marketing, the very, very, very first thing you need to do is know who your reader is. You have to know who you’re speaking to, what they like, what they don’t like, what they look for, what they’re reading, what they’re watching.
Do they celebrate Star Wars day? I mean, something as simple as if, you know, they love Star Wars. There’s so much content marketing that you can do around just the fact that it’s Star Wars. So that is like your starting point is your reader. It’s really taking that time. Please take that time. Because me, I learned the hard way of not taking time. So take the time to know who your reader is and then the ideas will start flowing, what to share, where to share, how to share it. You know, it all goes back to your reader. Like that is the core piece. So.
Laura
And speaking of everything starts, every story starts with the character… I realized while you were speaking that I got so excited I kind of didn’t tell anybody who you were. So maybe maybe I was just like, hey, I’m so excited. I really wanted Margaret on the show. Let’s go. You should just be excited.
Margaret
I really know what I’m talking about. I really do know what I’m talking about. I promise.
Laura
She’s legit. OK, so. So Margaret does work in marketing and is an author with books, that she markets, that you can buy. Actually let’s give your most recent fiction a little plug. It’s called the Secret Library, which right off the bat, great title, we’re in and we don’t need any more. But I know it has pirates. I know it has treasure hunting nuns. I feel like that’s also like, we don’t have to go any further than that. But I have not gotten to it. It’s only been out like a couple of weeks, I think. Right. And I’m still, my TBR is, I’m currently in the “reading things for professional reasons, not for funsies” segment of my reading list. So I’m going to let you, if we need any more beyond secret library pirates. If we need any more than that, I’m going to let you give it to us.
Well, the Secret Library is the second book in my YA pirate fantasy series. It does star a treasure hunting nun. And she was a wonderful accident because she came out in the first book. She also had a main role in the first book. But basically the secret library has all the things that she needs to know in order to help her sister, who’s a twin and a pirate, kind of save the world. So she has to brave this cursed jungle.
Laura
I missed that she also had a twin. Treasure hunting nun with a twin.
Margaret
Yes, identical twins. So her sister became a pirate and she became a nun. So that happened in book one, Macario’s Scepter. So that’s that whole thing. But she kind of goes off on her own adventure with a very grumpy pirate captain and the guy that’s supposed to arrest them both for what happened in Book one. So they all get stuck in a jungle and it’s all mayhem and crazy from there.
Laura
ShyRedFox says it sounds fun and WorkAppropriateGoth says, twin and pirate, I’m all in. So. Yeah.
Margaret
And you know, and I can bring this back to content marketing, right? Because when I released Macario’s Scepter and I was reading reviews, which reviews also count as content that you can use. Everybody loved the Treasure Hunting nun. And it was like there’s a treasure hunting nun. So I’m like, OK, so we’re going to roll with that. We’re going to ride with that, you know? And that’s what I used to help with the concept for Book two.
So that definitely helps in knowing your reader and kind of knowing what they want and what they love, what they loved in your books and in the characters that stood out. So that way, you know what to talk about online that’ll pique their interest. So kind of bringing it all back.
Laura
It’s a little bit of writing to market, not that I’m going to go find ,that I’m going to go do focus groups and find out people want X, but seeing what people are most excited about. “I have already written this. I’m just going to lean a little harder into.”
Margaret
Exactly. And if you’re just starting out, don’t worry too much about it. It’s really about because like I said in book one, the treasure hunting nun was totally not planned. Like that was not a thing. So. Write that first book. Yeah. She she came out in such a rewrite because the first time around she was so bland and my editor was straight up with me. She’s like, she she needs something. So I’m watching Indiana Jones one day. And I said, what if I sent this nun on a treasure hunting quest with like temples and monsters and hidden chambers? Let’s just see how that goes, you know? And that became the thing that readers really loved about the story.
But that first book, don’t worry too much. Write the story that’s in your heart have an editor that knows what he or she is talking about that can help bring that story shine. Pay attention to what readers are saying. Read those reviews, find those titles or books that are similar to yours, whether in theme or character, all those kinds of things. And then you can start building upon your content marketing. You can get a better feel and idea for how that all kind of works.
Laura
So, yeah. Bridger says in the chat, accidental treasure hunting nun is the best, and Kate points out you can’t plan for treasure hunting nuns, so.
Margaret
No, no, but you really can’t.
Laura
Treasure hunting nuns do what they want, OK? They just show up. They do the thing, OK. So I, I appreciate that you walked me back, that our baby step actually starts with a baby-er step of you know, I need to know who I’m trying to reach. You know, who am I trying to get excited with this stuff that I’m excited about. Because if I go to I don’t know what a collection of — I’m sorry, sorry, guys. I’m just going to, I have friends in this profession, but I’m throwing you under the bus. So if I’ve got my my my accountants or my my tax assessors or whatever, and I’m like treasure hunting nuns and they’re like, can we assess that? You might not be the best match. But OK, so I’ve got an idea now. I’ve picked out one or two real or imagined people that I’m like, OK, these people will like this thing that I’m all in on now. What do I do?
Margaret
Find out where these people hang out. Where are they? Are they on bookstagram, which about ninety nine point nine percent of readers are for the most part. Do they have groups on Facebook? And before you kind of jump in, in all of our excitement and like, oh, we want to do all the things, take the time to kind of listen, like, you know, how you walk into a room of strangers and you kind of feel the room? See what they’re talking about, see what they’re jazzed about, see what they’re psyched about, and then kind of figure out how your book fits in.
So, for example, if we’re talking about quirky characters, I know treasure hunting nun, that’s it. RealmMakers is a community where we are Christian authors with the Christian faith. I know treasure hunting nun is going to fit. You know, if it’s, you know, romance, maybe I’m not going to lean into that too much, but maybe just talk about my enemies to lovers trope that I know is in my book. So kind of reading the room and you want to kind of slide into the conversations.
You don’t want to be like, “Hey! Here’s my thing!” But kind of slide into the conversations and just find those common grounds before you kind of go all in and people are like, you know, who are you?
You know, you got to convince them a little bit. That’s that’s part of the journey, is kind of convincing them that you have a story that they like. So how can you convince them? You talk the same talk, you read the same books, you watch the same TV shows. I have readers that I had for a book tour that I did for the first book, and I find out she loves Supernatural. And we are in DM’s all day talking about Supernatural. You know, there’s there’s no play on that. But when it came time for Secret Library, I didn’t have a hard time asking her if she wanted to do get an advance copy and review, because you’ve established that relationship already.
So it’s really important to feel your way around, make connections, network with people. That’s why content marketing should start before you have a book published, because then there’s no pressure to sell anything, right. Because you have nothing to sell, you know, so make those plans.
Laura
I want to just go back and underline something you said at the beginning, because I need this, I don’t know, maybe clip this moment on Twitch or whatever. But you said the most important thing is to start listening when you walk into that social. I wish all of social media people understood this. Because we’ve all — I mean, I’m assuming we’ve all been there. I’ve definitely had this happen multiple times where I’m in a group that exist for a purpose A and somebody walks in and says, “I too like purpose A, would you like to hear about my object for sale to you?”
Margaret
And you’re like, uuuugh.
Laura
It’s so cringey. And like even it’s great because even in a totally virtual, totally digital space where nothing is happening in real time, there’s still an awkward pause where nobody wants to respond to that comment.
And you know, and, you know, I’m in a I’m in a group right now. It’s a professional group. It’s not all authors. Some people are authors. Some people are creating other things. I am entering my fourth month in this group and I have not yet made a pitch of my stuff. So I’m building credibility in this group. I’m being helpful to other people. And at some point somebody is going to say, oh, you know, so what do you have? And I’m not going to wait four years for that to happen, but I’m not going to walk — if I walk in and be like, buy my stuff, I have no credibility. I’m just a jerk.
Margaret
Yeah, yeah. It’s it’s the art of selling without selling. And I think think of it as a. I had one person in a group talk about how she felt kind of weird and cringey, having people like kind of, you know, like buy my book. And I’m like, well, come to it as a place of service. Like and again, you have to listen in order to find out what that problem is. And in the book world, it may be hard to pinpoint the problem, but maybe it’s there needs to be more pirate books in the world, you know? So if I see someone that comments about, I read this book and this book and gosh, I wish there were more pirate books, like you said, Laura, I’m not going to say, hey, I have one. I’mma friend you, like some of your posts. I’m going to give my own recommendations of pirate books that I’ve read that are cool. And then by the time you come to my Instagram page, you’re going to know because the first line in my bio is YA pirate fantasy author, you know, so. That’s that’s the way.
Laura
And by then you already have a reason to be coming and be interested.
Margaret
Yeah, exactly.
Laura
Bridger has it in the chat. This is great. “It’s like how every e-mail in my inbox today is Star Wars. ‘Hello, nerds. Please give money to large business. Very nerdy business, please money.'”
Laura
Yes, that’s exactly. Yeah. And P.J. is pointing out be genuinely helpful. That’s the thing is. We are culturally, socially, probably biologically, I don’t even know, conditioned for a little bit of an obligation. Like I was nice to you, so you will be nice to me and vice versa. Don’t use that for evil, OK? Don’t. But it’s OK to be like, “Have you seen, you know, Rex Smith and Kevin Kline in Pirates of Penzance? This is great. OK, if you haven’t seen it, should definitely check it out.” And then when I love that, I’ll be like, hey, she has good pirate recommendations.
Margaret
Yeah, exactly. It’s it’s all about being of service and contributing to the community, not trying to be like the loudest voice in the room. And I think with the launch of my second book, I honestly didn’t even feel like it was launching with the Secret Library, because I took the last two or three years — because the first book took about two years to come out. So the last two or three years building all these relationships, it was like. “Oh, hey, can you?” “Sure I’ll read the ARC copy. Hey, you know, don’t worry about it.” I have people emailing me, “send me the picture of your cover because I heard it coming out today. Let me put it on Instagram.” It wasn’t hard to do because these are relationships that I have built. I have beta read for people. People have marketing issues. If they’re like, hey, I have no idea where to put my newsletter. I’m like, hey, let me give you like three or four different bullet points to put in a newsletter. Like try that, you know, or.
Laura
On that note, people, the next time Margaret’s link rolls around in the chat, like on her front page is a thing of, here’s five things to write in your author newsletter. Because when you’re staring at it like gnawing and gnashing your teeth and just check that out. Yeah, she does this professionally, she can help you.
And Kate, by the way, you can Kevin Kline and sing in the chat any time. It’s fine. Totally. The Pirates of Penzance is always welcome.
Where were we? Yeah, sorry.
Margaret
I love it. I love it. I love it.
Laura
I think here’s the takeaway is content marketing is not it’s not selling, it’s me getting too enthused, with benefits.
Margaret
Precisely. It’s like delivering value, right, like it’s giving that and that value, of course, is entertainment. It’s a place to geek out about something. It’s someone to come to when they have an issue of our problem or someone that just, you know, that needs support, you know?
And I feel like the more you give to our community, the more it gives back to you. And that’s something that I really learned this year, because my last launch, you know, I didn’t do nearly as much as I did with my first. And it was a much more successful because I was out there just meeting with people. I have a group of writers. We’d get together every Friday when Mandalorian was on and we have watch parties and I’ll host a thing. I’m like, you like Mando? OK, cool. Listen, I have a Disney plus account. Every Friday is like our standing appointment and sometimes we talk about Mandalorian. Sometimes you talk about writing, they need graphics done, I’m more than happy to help with graphics. If I have a problem. It turns into that type of community that I know that we all kind of help each other and it’s all around Star Wars just like, you know, hey, you like it? I like it. Cool. Let’s talk about it, you know, and not be so shy or be so you know, this person’s going to think I’m annoying. No, nine times out of ten, we want that connection. So just reach out to people and have fun with it. You know, it’s not something that you should feel pressure to do.
And if you look all around you, content marketing is literally all around you. I mean, gosh, perfect example, that new Phase 4 Marvel trailer dropped yesterday. Not one of them said, go to the movies. It gave you a whole story that you were crying and cheering and crying and cheering. And then all I said was, see, at the movies done, Marvel has all of my money. They have all of my money. Just take off my checks because it’s that was so great. And it touched on everything that made the Marvel fan or i.e. the reader loves about Marvel. It hit all of the right notes. So when you really know your reader, it’s not going to be hard to, like you said, enthuse them or get them excited or get their interest piqued about something that you’re working on, you know?
Laura
Yeah, so, TonyBredin in the chat says, wait, so entertaining myself and others with memes is a form of marketing? Yes!
Margaret
It is. It is. It is. Whether it’s a meme about like, if you know your reader like Star Wars and you find a meme about thinking real hard and like, this is what I look like, you know, of my draft — like I had one with baby Yoda and it was like he was all perky writing the first draft. And then I got to editing, he’s really laid out on the floor. And I’m like, yep, that’s me all way. No, it’s funny. It shows off my personality. It shows that I love Star Wars. And if I love Star Wars nine times out of ten, my stories are kind of going to fall along the same lines, whether it’s having a big cast of characters taking place in a far off land, having some cool tech, whatever it is, it in that little meme, you already told your reader a lot about yourself and it was fun for you.
Laura
Yeah, and that’s a great point is, you know, we we can kind of segment ourselves without breaking down into labels and other things, which are awkward, but just like, hey, I’m going to wave this flag, who likes it? You know, and you can get people in. And, you know, one thing that I say a lot, those of you who are here regularly, just plug your ears and hum or move your mouth with me or whatever. But you know, a significant part of marketing is filtering out people who are not your target audience.
So when I, you know, post Lord of the Rings jokes or whatever and, you know, if you’re like, what is Lord of the Rings? It’s not that you absolutely won’t like my stuff, but you’re probably not already in that line waiting to buy, right? Yeah. You know, it’s just that I have a lot of fantasy fans in my readership. That’s probably a thing there. And so it’s a it’s an easy way to do some market definition without having to feel gross and label-y and mathy-y and all those things.
Margaret
Yeah. Knowing that you are not supposed to be marketing to everybody. And I think a lot of new authors get hung up on the fact that, “my ideal reader is everybody!” No, it’s not. You know, I want everyone to read it. Now, does crossover happen? Absolutely. But if you look at let’s say again, being at a Star Wars day, you know, opening day of Star Wars back in nineteen seventy nine for Episode four, not everybody was going to see it.
Laura
- I was there.
Margaret
Oh, 77, OK,
Laura
I was small but I was there, I was in at the beginning. Get off my lawn.
Margaret
I was not, I didn’t start going to the movies until about all the prequels, which is kind of bad. But you know, VHS is a wonderful thing. So I kind of dated myself there with the first ones. But they weren’t everybody. It was a real core group of nerds that went to go see Star Wars. Like nobody knew what this was about. And then when that little group of nerds came out and started talking about how cool this thing was, movie two you got a little bit more, movie three, you got a little bit more. And so you get that crossover. But the the writers cater to one specific type of reader.
So does crossover happen? It does. But if you start marketing to everybody, number one, you’re going to get lost. And then number two, you’re going to be so overwhelmed and stressed. And neither one of those things are really good for you writing wise, career wise or any of those things. So try to be as super, super specific, you know, as you can.
You know, I think of like my ideal reader loves a fast paced book, so I’m not going to write a five hundred page Game of Thrones novel. I like Game of Thrones. I actually read it. But that’s not something that I’m going to compare my book to, because that’s not what my reader likes, you know? And if somebody says. This book was too fast for me or whatever, that’s cool. The book wasn’t necessarily for you and to be OK with that.
Laura
You know, so I think that’s a big thing, is learning to be OK with that. Because especially when you’re starting out, you’re like, I lost somebody. That’s like 16 percent of my audience, you know, because I only know of eight people, you know, whatever. Yeah. And and it can feel really traumatic, but no, no, no, no, no. You’re focusing. It’s not a bad thing.
Margaret
And it’s good to start small. Like and I’ve noticed this too like the last couple of years, just listening to different podcasts of different authors who are speaking and a lot of new authors forget the fact that these people have been in the game for a long time. You know, like. Shadow and Bone, like, how many books did it take in order to get on Netflix, she wrote like a trilogy, two duologies, and still has books coming out in order for her to get that Netflix deal.
And that’s pretty quick. You know, if you look at Game of Thrones, he wrote those books in like the 80s, you know, before it became a movie. So to understand that this is a long game and if you want longevity, if you’re looking for something that you want to build a career, it’s going to be slow going.
And you want it to be, because then there’s no pressure to be perfect. You can play around, you can try anything if you try the thing and you had five people and you lost two, it’s not like you had five thousand people and lost four thousand ninety nine. Right. That’s all about perspective. Right. So by the time you get good and you double down on what really works, then that’s when you see the audience grow and that’s why you see the audience build.
I mean, Secret Library is my sixth book. Macario’s Scepter is my fifth book. You know, I had four books come out before then. They went absolutely nowhere because I didn’t take my own advice. So I said, all right, let’s start over. Right. Let’s start over and let’s build a brand. Let’s understand who the reader is. And said that took like two years. And even then after each release, I go back to my ideal reader and say, OK, what were they really liking? What did they love? And kind of go from there. And that’s where kind of like that write to market. But you can’t write to market if you don’t know who your market is.
Laura
Not to dis writing to market, because a lot of really smart people do really well with that. But I’m always going to say, like, the first thing has to be something I can get excited about, because if I was, I could I write a book that would sell a truckload of copies and make me money. And in just totally follow what’s hot right now. Yeah, I could, but I would hate it. I would, I would hate me and I would hate working on it. And I don’t know, maybe it depends on how much money it would make. I don’t know. But the point is that I’m not going to it’s not going to be fun. And that’s part of the reason that I write.
Margaret
Yes
Laura
And if I can put the stuff out there that I’m interested in, get people who are interested in that stuff with me and then, you know, oh, people really like this found family stuff. I really like this found family stuff. What if I really lean into this found family? (And let’s be honest, it was going to happen anyway.) But now I have people who like that with me, you know, and.
Margaret
Yeah, yes.
Laura
So it’s it’s just a it’s a much easier, much more fun way of doing all the stuff that you have to do anyway.
Margaret
It is. And readers can sense your passion and your authenticity. They know it. They’re very smart and intuitive. So if you’re not excited about what you’re writing, how do you expect anyone else to kind of be excited about what you’re writing?
Laura
Kate points out, “lots of days, I hate working on the book I’m excited about.” You really, really don’t want a project that you’re not excited about.
Margaret
And not to say that it doesn’t get hard. I mean I mean the treasure hunting nun — like I had with my first book, Macario’s Scepter, I thought I had it nailed. I rewrote that joker twice. I gave it to my editor, like, this is great. And she was like, no, 30k need to go. And a whole character, a whole character, a POV character. So every chapter that this dude was in had to go.
So after crying about it for about two days. Oh. And I had thirty days to turn around the new draft because that’s when the second round was going. Yeah. So lots of tears, lots of cheesecake, lots of feeling sorry for myself.
Laura
So much chocolate.
Margaret
all of that was happening and then I said OK, let’s figure this out. And I promise you, it was like I literally had no other option than to say, let’s take this nun on a treasure hunting quest and see where this goes. Like, just throw it out there and see how it goes, you know? So I’m not saying that it’s not hard. And I’m grateful because the story is 10 times better. The character that I cut, I actually got to put back in the Secret Library. So that was fun, you know, so that was a whole character I didn’t even have to really do or mess with.
Laura
We do not throw away. We put in a file.
Margaret
Yes. And the new chapter that spawned the idea for The Secret Library was in that rewrite. So I wouldn’t even had the follow up book idea had I not gone through all of that. So does it get hard? Absolutely. You know, just when you think you have it together and your editor will come to you in the nicest way ever and say, no, that’s not it. That’s you know, it’s like, OK, but you learn a lot and know what to do the next time, so but if I didn’t love the idea and if I didn’t love the story, I would have been like, you can keep those 30k words and the whole character, I’m out. Like, I’m done, you know?
So does it get hard? Yeah, but if you sit there and say, despite that it’s hard, I still want to fix it. I still want to see where the story goes then, yes, probably the the keeper right there.
Laura
Yeah, yeah, Kate’s pointing out in the chat, cut scenes are more content for our marketing bonus material.
Margaret
Yes, yes. Bonus material. Sometimes they can start a whole story. There can be some back story in that scene that you can flesh out and give it as your freebie newsletter or exclusive content if people preorder the book and say, hey, you can get like the cut version. You can get all these extras. I mean, there’s so many different things that you can do.
But again, there’s so many things, but your filter is your reader. Because, you know, we get shiny object syndrome like nobody’s business. There’s 20 million things that I thought of today that I wanted to do. It’s just like, OK, this is cool, but what does the reader want? Like I can say, I want to have a whole fantasy map and the readers, just like I just want another scene with the treasure hunting nun that you got. Like I got to spend all this money on this map, but they just want that chapter.
Yeah. So. Definitely understanding your reader makes things so much easier and like you said, just keeps you focused.
Laura
And that content marketing is a really cheap focus group, like that’s your test market that you get free as opposed to, I put a book out and my mom bought it, you know,. And so that’s where, you know, playing with your brand early…
Margaret
See it really helps.
Laura
Exactly as you were saying, like I figured this out when I lost two people, not when losing 20 percent was losing thousands.
Margaret
Exactly. Exactly. You know, and we as writers are really good at content marketing because we know how to tell a story. Like I’ve had to give presentations at my day job to corporate, like this is telling a story. No, no, no, the buy my stuff thing doesn’t work. And here’s why. Let’s take this person on a journey. And to them, it’s like this is mind boggling. But this is what we do as writers with our books all the time.
You know, it’s just a matter of now our hero is our reader. So how can I get my reader from not knowing me at all to that call of adventure? Come with me on this quest right to the point of no return like I was on the fence. But I’m not sure it has everything that I need, but I’m not sure if I want to pick up this book to the ending. They will buy whatever it is that you’re selling.
Like you don’t have to do that hard sell to them anymore, like they will buy whatever you’re selling. And it’s a journey. Sometimes that journey can be a couple of months. Sometimes it can be a couple of years. You know, I can’t expect, like I say, “hey, treasure hunting nun” and the people on the chat were like, “oh, that’s interesting.” I can’t count them as buyers yet. Like, I still have to, if you join my newsletter, you’re going to get a story about me. You’re going to get what was the book about. You’re going to get three excerpts from the first book, like, I’m going to give you all of that stuff. Then you can kind of make the decision.
Oh, wait, you’re not sure? All right, cool. I’m a moody reader, too, because my ideal readers are moody readers, like we are very particular about what it is. All right. I’m going to lay out for you all of the things and if this is up your alley, then to do that. And then if book two, you’re not sure. I added two chapters of Book two to the end of book one in the ebook. So understanding my reader and where there might be hesitant, where they might be like, I’m not sure. I don’t want to be disappointed because we hate to be disappointed by, you know, overhyped stuff.
So understanding that journey and then having that content there every step of the way, you know, is is important. And like I said, there’s 20 million things you can do. You can have a podcast, you can do a video, you can do it, you can do Instagram. But it’s all about what resonates with that reader. Like, is your reader on Instagram 24/7 then? Yes, being on stories and commenting and chatting is wonderful.
If they’re more into video, do they commute on the way to work back and forth? So they’re going to have 20, 30, 40, 50 minutes to listen to a podcast about book recommendations. Call them. Maybe a podcast is good for you. You know, so that kind of help you filter. That’s why they say, where do I start? Your reader. Like, take months, like really, just really, really take that time, read the books that they’re reading, watch the shows that they’re watching next month before I get into editing, there are a whole bunch of sea themed books that I need to get back to reading, because that’s what everyone’s talking about so that I can get in on the conversation if I liked it, because you can’t fake anything.
So if I like a thing, I can geek out about it all day, if not, then you know what? Hey, I kind of had a thing about this or find the readers that had that same kind of problem you did. But it takes time. It’s not something that’s just going to be a magic bullet. And it’s going to be like, hey, you know, it’s going to give you all of these readers and these buyers.
Laura
So. Yeah. I want to touch on something that Kate points out in the chat, she says, I think I’m bad at this because I’m not that person for anyone else. I don’t have a single autobuy author.
And I get this because that’s me. Like I, I can bog myself down so fast by trying to think of how to market to me. And I think what I what I like about this kind of thing is, I’m not trying to market to me, I am not trying to, I’m just going to enthuse. And then I would say to like, don’t don’t ever try to sell to yourself because you already know what you’re doing, right?
Like somebody else, pick somebody else who’s your who’s your person that you’re targeting and market to them. Right. Like. The number of authors I know personally who were like, I hate newsletters, I don’t read them, so I won’t have one. And I’m like, but look how many millions of people who are not you, who subscribe to them and like more than one of them? Like, they have money.
Margaret
Listen, it’s it’s yeah, I hear that the newsletter thing a lot. And me personally, I only read newsletters from my writer friends. And then again, I don’t have to because I talk to them so often, I kind of know what they’re doing anyways.
But the readers that are on my newsletter list, I’ve had my newsletter for quite a few years now and it consistently at at, you know, 30 to 40 percent, you know, like people are opening it and people are opening it. People are reading it. People are interested. I love getting emails back from people. And I noticed that, which I never would have figured out on my own. The people email me are like 50, 60, 70 year old grandmas with grandchildren that are out the house and they’re empty nesters and they’re looking for stuff to read.
I’m sitting here like, you guys read my stuff, you know, but but they like newsletters because they’re not going to be on Instagram. They’re not going to be on Facebook. They’re not going to be looking at the latest TikTok video. They get their information from the emails. And those are the ones that I hear from. So I’m like, OK, that’s pretty neat. Had I not had a newsletter, I probably wouldn’t have known that, you know, so probably weren’t picturing a 72 year old writing that book.
Laura
But you know what? Her checks cash, right? Like take it!
Kate’s pointing out, people who don’t offer ebooks because they don’t read e-books, they prefer paperbacks. And I actually just had a similar conversation about that today with somebody like, no. Yeah. It doesn’t have to be just for you? You’re not just doing this just for you.
Margaret
Yeah. And you know what? Push comes to shove, test it for you first for one book, just test it. Like you said, the numbers don’t lie and they don’t judge, right? So test that and see if that’s the case, because you won’t really know unless you try it, unless you do it. And having e-books up is actually easier than having a paperback book. Right.
So just see how that goes for your first launch. Track your numbers. You know, and you may be surprised. I used to be the other way around. I used to be like, everybody wants an ebook. Nobody really wants a paperback from an author they don’t really know. And I did my little author’s snapshot about last week, and I’m like I sold more paperbacks than e-books this go around. Which was shocking to me, because the first book had were mostly e-books, so I’m thinking, all right, they’re going to have the same trend, but numbers don’t lie.
So I know next time, OK, if I want to do a special push for paperbacks, I know that it will probably work because I looked at my numbers from the last launch.
Laura
So it comes down to the data. It always comes down to the data. We just need to do the data in pieces that are not scary.
Margaret
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and not dig too deep in it. It’s like, OK, you know, how many more followers did I get from this month or next month. OK, so if it went up, what did I do this month that I didn’t do last month, you know. OK, so let me do more of that one. It could be one thing. It could be putting questions at the top of your caption instead of at the end. It could be doing a flat lay instead of a shelfie. You know, you won’t know unless unless you tried and test it out, see if it works.
Laura
Yeah. And Bridger is putting out, I’m not trying to market to me is such a hard and important lesson, and she mentions that she will never click on a sponsored link. And hello, that is me. I also, like I don’t buy things off end caps. I am like a marketer’s nightmare. Right. But when she runs pay per click ads, she gets clicks. So clearly other people are not her.
And people pay big money for end caps, because it sells to most people who are not named Laura. Right. Go with things that, it doesn’t just have to be about me. The world is not about me.
Margaret
And listen, I work in marketing so I can see the strategy a mile away. I can see what you’re doing with your emails. I can see, I look at commercials and I’m just like, wow, Google. That was smart. I’m not buying it, though, but that was smart. Like, I like what you did there. Like, I do that all of the time.
I mean, it’s so bad I can look at a billboard and know like I’ve used that stock image before, that’s not a real person, because I’ve used that stock image like two weeks ago for something else, you know, but the average layperson thinks, oh, well, that’s that’s a real person.
Laura
What a heart-warming image!
Margaret
Yeah! And she’s using this product! I’m sitting over here like, No, like that is just like the standard stock photo image model that she’s in 20 million things, you know, so. I’m not the ideal person, but like you said, the average layperson won’t know that, you know, and if you truly connect with people at the end of the day, they will buy. I mean, this last launch, people preordered the e-book and then went and bought the paperback. That was mind boggling to me.
So while people do that twice, I wouldn’t do that twice. I’m only doing one at a time. But like you said, I’m not marketing to me, all right? I’m just like, OK, I’m I’m going to take that. I’m going to take that. I’m a write that down. I’m a noted for next time and see what we do with that. So.
Laura
Yeah. Yeah. And I think just excuse me, what you said about your being open to try things like just experiment a little bit and you know, it’s it’s not the end of the world. You’re probably not going to lose all your fans if you take photos at a Dutch angle instead of straight on on Instagram for week or whatever, like just play with stuff and see see what happens.
Margaret
And you don’t need to be on social media 24/7 either. You don’t need to be posting. Yeah, listen, listen. Oh, my gosh. Is such a thing. What works for one person? What works for one author may not necessarily work for you. You know, I look at it this way. I rather would post three quality, thought provoking fine posts a week, then having that post like, well, I’m just throwing this up there. I had no idea for a caption. Hope you have a good day. Bye. Like, that’s not that’s not engaging with anybody. That’s not you know, that’s not doing anything.
You know, the world goes on. If you have to miss, you know, for whatever reason a week or two, it’s all about finding that consistency of your consistency looks like one to two times a week. I rather you consistently post one to two times a week for the next six to nine months, then four to five times for three weeks, and then disappear for four months. It’s just like, you know, you have to do what works for you because at the end of the day, you have to have time to write. You have to have time to take care of yourself. You have to have time to just veg out and refill your creative. Well, I mean, it’s it’s super important. I mean, you have to have that time. And, you know, I don’t have I don’t have like five hours a day every day to be on Instagram posting stuff.
You know, I’m a single mom, right? I have an eight year old and a four year old and I have a full time job. And I have to write the books and I have to market the stuff, you know, like I don’t have time for that. I don’t have time to be on Instagram. So instead, whatever I do post on Instagram is going to be the best pictures that I can take.
Sometimes I’ll get a photographer to help me to give me ideas. Like I hired a photographer for my launch and her pictures were gorgeous. And I’m like, wait, let me try to do that, you know? And and I and I found, like, my groove and I found like what? Work with my brand just by by doing that, you know? But I don’t have the time. I wish I can be on Instagram lives and talk for three hours every day and take pictures of my food. I’m lucky to even eat. I mean, if you have kids, you understand, just like I was happy I ate right now, you know.
Laura
So I’m just going to plug again for the for the concept of content marketing versus scary marketing, because exactly what you’re just saying. Like some people, we have lives to live and obligations and day jobs and all of that. And if I have to sit down and come up with something that feels smarmy to me, it’s not going to happen right now because I’ve got five, ten minutes to do this and I’m going to spend eight of those staring at the screen wondering if I even want to try this.
Margaret
Exactly.
Laura
But but oh, look, you know, here’s a make fun of Boromir meme. Cool. I’m in the over. We’re done. And that’s going to get done. And I’m going to be able to keep up with that better.
And then the other thing, too, with this is, you know, I was thinking about… On a number of occasions I’ve found, got a book from the library, liked the author and went and tried to look up the person online. And they have like, two blog posts, one was from a year ago. They have three tweets, and all of them are very author-y, but there’s just nothing there.
But do you know how many make fun of Boromir memes I can share in a year? When somebody finds me like there’s a backlog of material. So I look like I’m active, right. Yes. I’m just soapboxing here.
Margaret
But again, it’s consistency. It’s it’s showing up because a part of it, too, is if you want your readers to shop for your books, you have to show up for them. They have to trust that you are going to be there to post that content, whatever that content is. If they’re looking forward to those memes, don’t disappoint on those memes. You know, you know, like deliver those memes if that’s your thing.
My latest thing is doing IG Reels because my books have that very, like in my brain, like my big plan is to see them in a movie, so I do like little mini movie trailers. I’ll find like an Indiana Jones soundtrack because a reader compared that to that Pirates of the Caribbean. I’ll find that and make a little 30 second reel. And that, to me is one, fun. Like, I love doing that. And two, the content works. I’m like I check the numbers and they’re crossing my fingers. I hope this one thing works. I really like doing this. It’s working, you know.
So it’s just definitely being consistent because, yes, we have lives and we do have to write the books. Right, because you don’t want to write one book and then it’s like, OK, I can’t write the second book because I’m up here playing on Instagram, with y’all. No, you need me to work on something.
Laura
You don’t need to call us out like that. That was personal.
Margaret
Oh, trust me. My scrolling is is ridiculous, but I’m on like a two week break. My edits are coming back like on Friday, so my playtime will be over shortly and I’ll be back in the hole. But I’ll still have the same schedule though. Like I also have, you know, three Instagram posts a week. My email runs on complete automation. So all of those excerpts and things that I told you guys about, that’s all email. It’s one and done. It’s running. It’s in the background.
Laura
God bless autoresponders.
Margaret
Yeah. I don’t have to worry about a thing. People are coming in and they they’re being taken care of. So I don’t have to worry about that, you know, so. Yes, it’s important, but it all starts at the reader, guys like you can’t do any of the cool stuff unless you know the cool stuff that your reader likes.
Laura
And. I gonna expand on that for just just a second. Like, how can I say this? Go find it. Go find the people who like your cool stuff, don’t try to reinvent you and your book to match somebody else’s cool stuff.
Margaret
Mm hmm.
Laura
I think sometimes there’s some pressure online in certain author communities to be like, yeah, well, this Y.A. trope is really big right now. So go go push your book into that. But that’s not the thing that I like? So it’s going to make it harder for you to do so.
Margaret
Yeah. And that’s when it pays to really have an editor that you can really lean on. I mean, my my editor checks me all the time, like I’ll be like, oh, I want to do other cool things, you know, especially with the Secret Library, which is like, oh, we can do this and we do that. She was like, focus on the nun, the nun, the jungle, monsters. That’s it. Just keep it straightforward.
Laura
Seriously, that’s enough. That’s it. That’s it.
Margaret
She’s like you have like 20 million other books You still have to write. You don’t have to put all the things in it. Just, you know, and I’m just like, OK. But you need that reminder. You need that community of of writers that you really get along with and understand where you are on your journey. The struggles that you have, you know, my writer friends, we’re all basically kind of in the same boat.
We have, you know, multiple book projects. Sometimes it gets complicated and hairy and sometimes we need somebody else to say stop complicating the thing. Like, I liked A, B and C, stick with that, you know, so that’s when it pays to have that outside help to kind of just. Well, that in a little bit, you know, it’s you don’t have to throw in all the things in book one, you don’t have to.
Laura
I have no idea what that’s like!
Margaret
I don’t either. Listen, I don’t either. That’s why I literally plan all of my books out so I can just take all the wonderful ideas. OK, I have this idea. I am OK with this like book seven. I’m going to stash that away, knowing it’ll probably get changed by the time we get there, but just makes me feel better. So I don’t feel like the idea is totally wasted because it’ll end up in the draft.
And then my editor is going to be shaking her head, like I told you, to keep stuff simple.
Laura
But honestly, what we said earlier about never throw stuff away, that is how I get myself to cut things because I can’t just delete this. But if I cut it and save it over here, it’s not gone, right? I didn’t delete it. So it’s OK to cut it from here because I still have it for the future, even if I never use it for the future. It’s the mental game that works for me. So yeah.
Margaret
It’s there, it’s there. And and all of these things that we’re talking about, your writing journey readers want to hear about it. I didn’t think so either. Like it’s like who wants to hear about. But you’ll be surprised about how many people are just inspired by, you know, just the process of writing a book. Because at the end of the day, how many people that we know that says, hey, I want to write a book and they never write a book. So just the fact of writing it and finishing it is like a major accomplishment.
We may not feel it, but to the outside world, outside of our little bubble, that is like a huge accomplishment. So really talking about what it took to get to that book.
And then there are writers who are not as far along as you are who are maybe still working on the first draft and say, you know, look, yeah, I had to cut thirty K from a draft and it was like, oh my God. Like, yeah, it was rough. But look now at the book, it’s twenty times better. But I understand the heartache of thinking that you had the story like nailed down.
Laura
And so there. I cut 50k from Shard & Shield, which was still published in one hundred and forty K so you can imagine what the heck it was. And, but yeah. Just the. When writers are posting, they’re like, “well, they say my books too long, but there’s nothing I can cut.” I’m like, Oh, I bet you can.
Margaret
See I’m a lean writer. See my books come in between seventy five and 80. So you cut 30, dude, that’s a third of the book and you’re like. What am I supposed to be doing now, like there is a big hole. Treasure hunting nun, all right, cool and done.
that was it was the most beautiful mistake ever. So that’s why I can’t stay mad at my editor because I’m like, if it wasn’t for you, she wouldn’t be in there. So it’s. It’s fine. It’s cool. It’s cool.
Laura
So, OK, so we are kind of at time, which is amazing because I feel like we could totally keep going. I don’t know, are you booked for the rest of the week? So give us a quick little wrap up on where we can find you and what you have for us. And I know because you have two websites, so give us the rundown.
Margaret
Yeah, OK. So you can find me for all of my content marketing stuff and the newsletter freebie that she talked about and my podcast, which I have about 30 episodes, and they kind of walk you through questions about learning about who your ideal reader is, kind of taking them on that journey. So like the three act structure actually break down like content strategy with that three ACT structure. I talk about different types of content from blogs to video. Which one should you do? What you do not do? A slight spoiler. It depends on your reader. Slight spoiler, but I have all of that there.
And then as far as my fiction work, you can find me at MMcGriff dot com and I’m also on Instagram a lot, at least until my edits come back. So for the most part, you can hit me up. Yeah, like I let myself have some Instagram play time. Now I’m at MJ_McGriff.
Laura
You make responsible adult choices about when you have Instagram time.
Margaret
Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I give myself tight deadlines on purpose because it’s like, yeah, you have to turn in this draft on X date because you put down your deposit on the editor to book the slot. So you kind of have to do it. So. But you can find me there. MJ_McGriff. I’m there like all the time and I just love talking in DMs and people asking questions about strategy and all that good stuff because it’s fun for me.
Laura
So yeah. Bridger, she has a podcast, podcast I think currently on hiatus for the moment but there is a ton of free content.
Margaret
Yeah I filmed it for a year. Yeah. And it basically came down to I only had time for either writing or the podcast. And it had to come down to the writing.
Laura
Freaking twenty four hours.
Margaret
You know, I was home schooling two kids. I had books on deadline and I’m just like, OK, but I did record them.
Laura
Homeschooling single mom, full time job, writing books, making a podcast… Jeez, Margaret. Pull it together.
Margaret
I know. I know. I know. I’m such a slacker. I’m such a slacker. But there is a lot of great content on the on the podcast. And I definitely will be making a push this summer to get on more podcasts to talk about it, because I just feel like, you know, it’s still stuff out there to share and talk about. And I just like helping people. I really do. I really do. Marketing doesn’t have to be scary.
Laura
I’m jumping over to paste your links again because for whatever reason, my bot that was supplying the links died.
Margaret
Is it on vacation?
Laura
it’s like I’m off for Instagram, bye!
Margaret
Yeah, he’s like, I’m done, I’m done.
Laura
So yeah, the both of those links should be in the chat. And if you’re catching this in the podcast later, if you can hear the sound of my voice, check the show notes. They will be in there as well.
So, OK, well that is our hour and I’m sad, but maybe we can have you back at some point because that was a lot of fun
Margaret
Oh, absolutely.
Laura
And maybe you can come and talk to us about newsletters.
Margaret
Oh, I can talk about that all day.
Laura
I think I need somebody to talk about that all day because, I am in the, “I know newsletters are good. I see the good that they do. I like doing them three times a year and then, yeah, OK.”
So OK, ShyRedFox says this has been so great. Thank you. Thanks passing that on. And PhiPhi found the links. And Joe. Oh, hey, Joe. I didn’t see you in the chat before. Welcome. Welcome. Now that we’re ending. And so but Joe says thanks so.
So yeah. So we will check out, check out her links, grab her freebies and her podcast and all kinds of good info for creative types in there. And then, yeah, we might we might get you back so you can personally coach me through newsletters while other people listen.
Margaret
I would love that. And I’m telling you, newsletters, newsletters and email are seriously it’s so much fun. It’s like writing a story, honestly, and all the little bots do all the complicated stuff for you. It’s really not that bad.
Laura
So in all seriousness, we will we will book that in the future. So guys look forward and you have more things coming into the chat from PJZooFit and people. So. So, yeah. Thanks. Thanks, guys.
I’m sorry. I really never did my pause. Does anybody have questions for Margaret because I totally monopolized her for the last hour or so.
Margaret
That’s totally fine. Ask questions. My kids are being entertained downstairs by my aunt. So this is like my only me time.
Laura
Yeah, I don’t have anybody standing over my shoulder waiting for this computer either. So if there are questions, go ahead and throw them in the chat. Otherwise we will wrap and then I will book with Margaret for some point in the future.
And we will let the chat have time to roll around with the delay. Yeah. Live streaming something a little interpretive dance while this goes on.
Margaret
So you know, make some coffee. Have lunch. Oh there it is.
Laura
Yeah. Yeah. Scheidt ShyRedFox is looking forward to the what I think is the newsletter episode. So yeah I think we should definitely definitely do that. So OK.
Oh really. Let’s go ahead and wrap and this will be out for replay on YouTube and in the podcast in a few days and yeah. Guys check the show notes if you, if you haven’t seen the links already and all kinds of fantastic info and then we will see you.
What is next week. I have no idea. I have a calendar for this. They do. I don’t have nothing.
Margaret
I have no idea either. I’ve lost our concept of time. It’s like I hit book launch and it’s like don’t ask me what day it is anymore. I don’t know, I don’t remember.
Laura
Oh, so we have a quick question like yes, this could be an entire episode, but can we get the nutshell version of Newsletters as stories.
Margaret
Newsletters as stories. So every part of the story has about, has like three acts. Right. So you want to kind of think of it as you’re going to have your intro. So you kind of set the tone for your story. So like my newsletters, I always start out with something personal, because to me the email is something that’s personal between me and the sender. It’s not like a blast. It’s like we’re we’re here to chat. So this is going to be something personal.
Then keep them kind of informed, give them something of value. Right. Like kind of keep them along so you can still put pieces of you in there, but always keeping them in mind. So that’s kind of how you’re delivering the story. It’s kind of like how, yes, this character is going on a journey, but, you know, the readers there to so kind of balancing both between, you know, a little bit to you and giving stuff to them.
And you want to give more stuff to them, because when book launch is going to be more about you and then you won’t feel crabby about it. So that short version of that. So I hope that answered your question.
Laura
That was that was a really good like taking a whole huge semester of material and compressing it. I’m I am impressed.
So real quick, I don’t really have, I truly don’t remember what’s going on next week in the in the show, in the stream. I have no idea. But I know two weeks out is the subscribers and crowd funding and subscriptions and all of that. And we have so many people coming in to talk about that and from all different levels and all different, you know, like some people do stories and some people do art and lots of different things. So it will be a really good cross-section. And I’m going to be I’m just going to let them talk while I take notes.
It’s so so everybody come back for that. I believe that’s on the eighteenth.
So, Margaret, thank you so much for coming. I really appreciate it.
Margaret
Thank you for having me. This was fun. We have to do this again.
Laura
Yeah, because because I need your newsletter coaching, so. OK, all right. Sounds good. All right. And then. Thanks, everybody. We will see you all next Tuesday. Take care. Bye.
